Tuesday SE

[tweegster]

East point 47g59 yikes

[Michael]

East point 47g59 yikes

It just cranking at my place now, maybe there will be some wind in the morning.

[gabrielb]

Good SUP conditions at PR as wind at PR at 12 knots and under and saturna over 29 knots and Sandy over 22 knots == glassy surf, easy as well. Waist high too. If nothing else .

As system shuts down

[Slappy]

You should never sail your lines over another person. Stay clear of downwind sailors - they have right-of-way.

I'm curious, what is the source of concern with lines over windsurfers? I know you dislike it so always try and give you a wide birth on the water.

As kiters we routinely do 2 stacks of lines over our heads as we pass each other without incident all the time. Now we do have the ability to set the angle our lines run out at vs. masts being straight up, but there are no surprises with masts, you can see how high it is.

Sailing Monday I had no choice but to sail my lines over windsurfers as on 3 different occasions I had windsurfers upwind of me cut in front of me on a broad reach while I was sailing upwind.

One of those occasions the sailor then decided to throw a 1/2 of a front and crash 20 feet in front of me forcing me to tack or run them over.

I usually chalk things like that up to windsurfers limited visibility with the sail in the way and don't take it personally though.

[C36]

You should never sail your lines over another person. Stay clear of downwind sailors - they have right-of-way.

I'm curious, what is the source of concern with lines over windsurfers? I know you dislike it so always try and give you a wide birth on the water.

As kiters we routinely do 2 stacks of lines over our heads as we pass each other without incident all the time. Now we do have the ability to set the angle our lines run out at vs. masts being straight up, but there are no surprises with masts, you can see how high it is.

Sailing Monday I had no choice but to sail my lines over windsurfers as on 3 different occasions I had windsurfers upwind of me cut in front of me on a broad reach while I was sailing upwind.

One of those occasions the sailor then decided to throw a 1/2 of a front and crash 20 feet in front of me forcing me to tack or run them over.

I usually chalk things like that up to windsurfers limited visibility with the sail in the way and don't take it personally though.

IKO Rule 3. Never fly over non-participants

This seems obvious but on any crowded kite launch site, you will see people breaking this rule every day. The reason that you never want to do this is because you are endangering the persons below the kite. The kite can suddenly power up and could hit, cut, slice, drag, drop, or knock down any person within the kite’s wind window.

This can happen to anyone. Even the most experienced kiter does not have 100% control of their kite 100% of the time. The wind can suddenly gust, lull, or some other factor like a line breaking can cause a momentary loss of control, and then, the kite can injure someone. Even experienced kite launchers must be extremely careful when getting beneath a kite.

My own view: I have no trouble sailing in close proximity to those that are predictable and courteous (including George, Nanmoo, Windoctor, Jerry, Clay and many other mature kiters) even in rather hectic conditions, but they typically don't place me in the 'danger zone' below their lines for any longer than is absolutely necessary. This level of trust and understanding takes time to establish. But I have seen the sun disappear way too many times up at Squamish, followed shortly by that tell-tale whistle, and the abrupt BANG of a kite tomahawking from the sky. I have also seen experienced kiters have their kites Hindenburg in crazy strong wind. I have absolutely no desire to be entangled in someone else's kite lines in 30+ mph wind and a rolling sea. Just ask Cash how that feels.

If that's not clear, please let me know.

[Michael]

but there are no surprises with masts, you can see how high it is.

Maybe for you Slappy but I had a guy drop his lines low enough to hit my mast causing both of us to crash at full speed and I then had to get clear of his lines, so that is my source of my concern. Accidents can happen so I try to keep enough distance, but I know when we're riding waves out there together it can be hard.

[Slappy]

Never fly over non-participants

Do you guys see yourselves as non-participants out there? My feeling is we are all participants regardless of what gear we are riding. I have windsurfers sail upwind of me within a masts length of me quite often, and an errant mast has a far greater ability to kill you on the water than a kite via knocking you unconscious. When they do that you better believe I pay attention and take precautions but I understand we need to share the water.

in the 'danger zone' below their lines for any longer than is absolutely necessary.

This has always confused me too as the real danger zone isn't directly below the lines as the kite can't crash with speed directly below, it will move with the kiter as it travels down.

The real danger zone is one kite line length away from the kiter in a down wind semicircle. You are far safer passing under the kite at half the lines length than near a full lines length. This is how kiters ride together so easily, we actually try and be closer to each other because it's safer. Trying to avoid this makes it so that instead of 5m separation you need 30m of separation, but this seems like what windsurfers want. And since 35m of separation is crazy hard to manage out there you'll end up in that 25m tamahawk zone more often and be in more danger than if the lines were flying over your head.

Just ask Cash how that feels.

It was actually Lane and I that helped save Cash that day.

[gabrielb]

I don't know much, (don't kite don't windsurf at high wind) all I know that when a kite surfer doesn't want to fly into space when overpowered, in a split decision they fly the kite very close to the water to depower, it's a decision that put lines parallel to water and kite lines are mowing a 25 meter radius at a very high speed, don't know the damage it could do ... having been close to one of those moments I just stay away when it's very gusty .

or maybe it's the other way around.

eh.jpg (18.89 KiB) Viewed 16260 times

[C36]

...or maybe it's the other way around.

Other way around. Neutral is at 12 o'clock. Down low is bottom of power stroke.

SHORT VERSION:
Bottom line is its a big ocean and there is lots of room for all of us. There is no need to make others feel uncomfortable or put them at risk.

LONG VERSION:

Never fly over non-participants

Do you guys see yourselves as non-participants out there?...

Yup. If it's not my hands are not on the bar controlling that kite, I am a "non-participant" and totally at the mercy of the person controlling (or not controlling) that kite.

IKO Rule 3. Never fly over non-participants

This seems obvious but on any crowded kite launch site, you will see people breaking this rule every day. The reason that you never want to do this is because you are endangering the persons below the kite. The kite can suddenly power up and could hit, cut, slice, drag, drop, or knock down any person within the kite’s wind window.

This can happen to anyone. Even the most experienced kiter does not have 100% control of their kite 100% of the time. The wind can suddenly gust, lull, or some other factor like a line breaking can cause a momentary loss of control, and then, the kite can injure someone. Even experienced kite launchers must be extremely careful when getting beneath a kite.

...My feeling is we are all participants regardless of what gear we are riding. I have windsurfers sail upwind of me within a masts length of me quite often, and an errant mast has a far greater ability to kill you on the water than a kite via knocking you unconscious. When they do that you better believe I pay attention and take precautions but I understand we need to share the water.

Thanks for paying attention. I wish others some others would too - keeping aware of where others are, using shoulder checks before changing direction, and maintaining a safe buffer (see IKO rule 7 below) while sailing and particularly when boosting air.

...in the 'danger zone' below their lines for any longer than is absolutely necessary.

This has always confused me too as the real danger zone isn't directly below the lines as the kite can't crash with speed directly below, it will move with the kiter as it travels down.

The real danger zone is one kite line length away from the kiter in a down wind semicircle. You are far safer passing under the kite at half the lines length than near a full lines length. This is how kiters ride together so easily, we actually try and be closer to each other because it's safer. Trying to avoid this makes it so that instead of 5m separation you need 30m of separation, but this seems like what windsurfers want. And since 35m of separation is crazy hard to manage out there you'll end up in that 25m tamahawk zone more often and be in more danger than if the lines were flying over your head.

IKO Safety Rule 7: 7. Keep a safety buffer

A safety buffer is what you create to keep some distance between you and something dangerous. A safety buffer is both distance and time. When you are moving faster you will need to make your safety buffers bigger. You should create a safety buffer whenever you see something that you do not want to hit.

This could be the beach, some rocks, other kiters, or obstacles. When creating your buffer, you should also consider how far your kite reaches out ahead of you keeping in mind that your safety buffer starts at your kite and extends beyond that.

A safety buffer between two kites (or two kiters) is ever greater. If you have 25m lines and the other kiter has 25m lines, you need a minimum of 50m between you to ensure that the kites don’t touch each other but that still does not allow for any separation between the kites.

The safety buffer is the extra area/distance between the closest possible points of contact. Sometimes kite instructors will recommend a safety buffer of two or three kite line lengths away from an obstacle on full length lines that translates to 50m to 75m. But, in strong winds, the buffer should be increased. Sometimes, the buffer needs to be 5 line lengths and in extreme conditions up to 10 line lengths (10 line lengths = 250m).

Whatever safety buffer you leave downwind of you to keep out of danger and stay away from objects, should be the same for the guy riding upwind of you. So, if you like a 75m buffer downwind of you, then the guy riding upwind of you probably wants to stay about that same distance away from you because you are now the obstacle that he is trying to avoid.

If I am kiting in extreme winds at my limit, I can assume that anyone upwind of me is possibly kiting at their limit too. So, I do not want to let them get inside my upwind safety buffer. And, I do not want to ride into their safety buffer either. Always try to consider the amount of reaction time and stopping distance you would need to avoid an accident.

In strong wind there is less reaction time. Because things happen faster and you are moving faster, the stopping distances will also need to be increased.

Just ask Cash how that feels.

It was actually Lane and I that helped save Cash that day.

I remember (and it was good of both of you to help him out), so you will have a first hand sense of how quickly and crazy things can get when they go wrong.

[gabrielb]

true, goes both ways.

I once hit a girl, kite surfer, when turning at squamish (spit), 7m sail, end of boom did a number on her (she tried & snuck behind me ... I showed her )

windsurfers 1 kitesurfers 0.

Kidding aside, small hit, people are learning and things don't go their way, space is good to have for sure.