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by AdrienGrelon » Thu Nov 16, 2017 2:37 pm

Slappy, as one of the kiters I'm confortable being in close quarters with up in Squam, I gotta respectfully disagree with you on this point:

Slappy wrote:I have windsurfers sail upwind of me within a masts length of me quite often, and an errant mast has a far greater ability to kill you on the water than a kite via knocking you unconscious.

Kitesurfing is without question more dangerous for the participant and those in their vicinity. People have lost fingers, broken ribs and been rushed to the ER kiting at 3rd/locally in recent times. I don't know of a single serious windsurfing injury there, ever..

Without someone riding the kit, windsurfing gear has almost no power/weight/momentum. If someone bails, the gear will usually land and sit in the water until retrieved. That's far from the case with a kite, that creates hazard zones downwind (kite starts death spiraling) and upwind, with the lines. It would take some serious skill and precision to joust another kiter or windsurfer with your mast whilst sailing. The only way that might be possible is with a perfectly timed Shaka, where the mast goes horizontal and points in the direction of travel temporarily during the rotation:

Image

The good news is, that move used to be called the "Impossible" cause it's f'ing hard, and there's only one guy on the mainland who can do that move, Massimo "Shaka Man" Planevolezza. So your odds of getting jousted by a windsurfer are about as good as me ever finding a windsurfing girlfriend in her 20s.

Back to the matter at hand, though, in a spot like Centennial 3rd, there's really no reason for close quarter sailing, especially on the wind bomb days. There are waves everywhere. Kites overhead will always make me nervous. It's all fun and games until someone gets hurt.

The guy who threw a half successful forward in front of you should have left more space. The guys who cut C36 off should have given more space. No one's gonna be perfect in 50 knots, we've all gotta make an effort.

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by gabrielb » Thu Nov 16, 2017 3:07 pm

Adrien wrote ...
o your odds of getting jousted by a windsurfer are about as good as me ever finding a windsurfing girlfriend in her 20s.


Plan B...
Adrien.JPG
Adrien.JPG (63.69 KiB) Viewed 15953 times


Her face ;) ... she is doubtful you'll land that double forward.
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by 8mdude » Thu Nov 16, 2017 10:12 pm

C36 wrote:Never fly over non-participants


This happened to me last summer at event site in Hood river OR. Some dumb kiter who was behind me (he's upwind and I'm downwind). Obviously I cannot see him and he was flying his kite right above me near the launching/landing area at the event site -- where the wind is swirly. He seemed very experienced but unfortunately his kite fell on me. So in return I made sure my sail and board are on top of his lines so he had a really long swim after that...And my poor gear found their way to the sand bar. This is why I like to use inexpensive sails and board so I can let go of them with the dumb kiter. The poor guy was saying all kinds of swears to me for not helping -- thank god the wind was so strong I could not hear him bitching.
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by Slappy » Fri Nov 17, 2017 1:10 am

AdrienGrelon wrote:Without someone riding the kit, windsurfing gear has almost no power/weight/momentum. If someone bails, the gear will usually land and sit in the water until retrieved.


This guy could literally decapitate you from 2 full mast lengths upwind of you:
Image

I think the bigger danger with WS gear though is just getting hit in the head and drowning.

The board + kite + bar & lines I was riding on Monday have a combined weight of, no joke, 11 lbs. And there isn't a even a hard surface on any of them.

Now I realise I'm on the far end of the spectrum but the average WS board + mast + boom + sail must weight around 30 lbs.

While I would agree that kites are quite dangerous for the user but the WS crew seems to be of the opinion they are more deadly that they are for people around them. I respect that opinion though and try and give them as much room as I can but since I'm always chasing the good waves I end up in the thick of the WS crew quite often.
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by 8mdude » Fri Nov 17, 2017 6:36 am

Slappy wrote:
While I would agree that kites are quite dangerous for the user but the WS crew seems to be of the opinion they are more deadly that they are for people around them.


It's a number game. There's more of us kiters than more of us windsurfers.

Kiting has higher rate of getting into injuries than windsurfing:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5155257/
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by max.spock » Fri Nov 17, 2017 10:46 am

Slappy wrote:
AdrienGrelon wrote:Without someone riding the kit, windsurfing gear has almost no power/weight/momentum. If someone bails, the gear will usually land and sit in the water until retrieved.


This guy could literally decapitate you from 2 full mast lengths upwind of you:
Image

I think the bigger danger with WS gear though is just getting hit in the head and drowning.

The board + kite + bar & lines I was riding on Monday have a combined weight of, no joke, 11 lbs. And there isn't a even a hard surface on any of them.

Now I realise I'm on the far end of the spectrum but the average WS board + mast + boom + sail must weight around 30 lbs.

While I would agree that kites are quite dangerous for the user but the WS crew seems to be of the opinion they are more deadly that they are for people around them. I respect that opinion though and try and give them as much room as I can but since I'm always chasing the good waves I end up in the thick of the WS crew quite often.
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by max.spock » Fri Nov 17, 2017 10:50 am

Sorry for the empty post. The website keeps asking me to re log in and my message went lost. I'll try again.

I believe that the weight of the gear has relatively low impact when you consider the tension in your lines. Think about getting tangled in the lines when there is still tension. They are like freaking knives.
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by ShonanDB » Fri Nov 17, 2017 11:04 am

While we are on the topic here's a good reminder of Right Of Way (ROW) as there were a few Kiters and Windsurfers on Monday who felt that they always had the ROW regardless of being on Port or Starboard tack. Also a couple Kiters tended to keep their kites in the power zone even when passing upwind. I had to bail downwind a number of times on Starboard tack to avoid a crash or even when I was downwind, a mast to kite line hit. Maybe it was partly due to the flooding tide that day as everyone was trying to pinch as high as they could on the way back in to stay in line with their launch.

Anyway, this applies to Windsurfers too except the part about flying your kite high when passing upwind. :)

"9. Know the Right Of Way (ROW) rules

The right of way rules are a way of reducing accidents on the water because all kiters need to know how to react when they get into some kiting traffic. The first ROW rule is simply, “Avoid accidents at all costs!” This means don’t crash into anyone.

Once any kiter gets beyond the basics and starts mixing in with the general kiting population, they should also know the most common ROW rules. There are the basic rules for sailing that also apply to kiting: “port gives way to starboard;” “upwind gives way to downwind;” and etc. There are some kite specific rules as well like “the upwind kiter keeps their kite high when passing another.” There are many good websites that explain the rules. Some also explain the rules for kiting in the waves, and also, for kiting with other types of water craft. We have to learn how to share the water with each other and how to share the space with other water users as well. And, most of all know the ROW rules to help you to avoid accidents."
DB
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by gabrielb » Fri Nov 17, 2017 11:08 am

energy of impact depends on velocity (square) and mass, velocity bigger factor when it hits your head. :ugeek: let's cut steel with water ...

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by C36 » Fri Nov 17, 2017 11:35 am

Slappy wrote:This guy could literally decapitate you from 2 full mast lengths upwind of you:
Image...

Cartwheeling gear exploding away from sailor in high winds has risks for sure and everyone has a responsibility not to put others at risk. Solution: allow for clearance below (downwind) of you and don't launch if there is someone downwind of you.

The other issue is what happens to the gear - natural position for windsurfing gear (once it hits the water, or the beach in the this case) is STOP. Kites, often not so much, as they can get stuck in GO (like the dreaded "death spiral").

And no need to worry about that guy, he's not likely to be using that gear again any time soon the way it folded into the rock beach like that (and then was quickly swallowed up by the sea). :D ;)

The alarming part of this discussion is I figured the 'close calls' I experienced were the exception, but with others stepping forward (four others on the same day) it appears to be closer to the rule - not good at all. Probability will lead to bad outcomes of this isn't corrected. :? :cry:
Last edited by C36 on Fri Nov 17, 2017 12:06 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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